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 How you learn salsa...We go through different stages when we learn a new skill - knowing these stages will help you, the learner, to recognise when you can competently carry out a salsa move or pattern - and for teachers, this is useful to know when it comes to assessing how your people are coping with your classes...When you begin to learn any new task you are in a state of unconscious incompetence - in other words, you're really not very good at what you are doing but at the same time, you don't know just how bad you are at it! The phrase 'blissful ignorance' also describes this level! With a little tuition and practice you move into a state of conscious incompetence i.e. you still can't quite manage the move or pattern but you realise you're not quite getting it and you may also have an idea why it's going wrong... You persevere and with practice you become consciously competent - this means you are getting the move or pattern right but you have a permanent look of concentration on your face throughout the move! This is because you have to think yourself through the move in order to complete it. If you become distracted during the move it'll fall apart. You definately can't hold a conversation whilst you are dancing this move! But it's looking and feeling pretty good... A load more repetition of the move and you slide into that Nirvanic state on unconscious competence - in other words you can do the move without giving it any thought - it just comes naturally. Most of us walk and run in this state. If you are at Improver level then your basic step will be danced at this level - you don't have to keep thinking which foot to place where! Lots of factors get you to this level - people talk about muscle memory and the like - but the bottom line is that you need to practice repetitively - go over and over the move or pattern - then take a break - then go over and over again. After a lot of repitition during a session it will feel like things are getting worse! That's ok - take another break and come back to it again and you'll find that you have actually improved without realising it. And the beauty of this state is that you can now use your spare thinking capacity to invent variations of the move you're dancing whilst you're dancing it - that's exciting and worth working towards. How long does all this stuff take? Rome wasn't built in a day and salsa dancers aren't born with the 8 count in their head. It takes time and practice to get good. For the Leaders the tough part is building a repetoire - if they don't lead a move or pattern then nothing but the Basic step is going to be danced. Followers don't know what's coming so they need to learn how to respond - to identify shapes and leads and to feel the timing and acquire an understanding of some basic rules of movement and body management - but a lot of this is picked up fairly easily and is an intuitive process (and intuition tends to be something most female followers are naturally good at anyway!). For the Leaders it's a more considered process - they need to have a clear picture in their heads of the shape of the move and the individual stages of it - if they lose a part of the move then it will often fall apart - so they have to learn mechanically and then they have to retain - and keeping hold of a bunch of patterns so they are all ready for use is like learning a foreign language - always harder then it's talked up to be! Never assume that attendance at one class on a particular move will result in you being able to add that move to your repetoire. Do the class a number of times (teachers repeat everything eventually) and practice as much as possible in between. Once you've got the move don't let it out of your sight or it will get away - if I learn a new move I dance it regualrly along with all the others. If I go to a dancenight and don't dance every one of my moves at some stage I can almost guarantee that the undanced moves will soon be lost. It can take ages before a Leader feels his repetoire of moves is sufficient - and by sufficient I mean you can dance with someone for five minutes knowing that the dancing will not feel too repetitive for the follower - and ideally, the follower will feel nicely challenged by the move/pattern variations and will come off the dancefloor slightly surprised by her own skill (a feeling which is, of course, directly proportionate to the skills and confidence of the Leader!). Let's be realistic here - with a typical amount of practice (i.e. not much) it'll take a Leader eighteen to twenty-four months to start feeling really useful on the dancefloor. The Leader will then probably keep dancing Improver level patterns for three or four years before Intermediate moves start to creep into the repetoire (even if he's been attending classes at that level for a year or two). If you're really keen and you have a good feeling for the music then you will progress faster - most people don't. For the Followers most will follow Improver level moves and patterns after they've been dancing regularly for as little as four months, by six months they will be pretty responsive. For reasons of comfort and complacency followers tend to level off at this stage - probably because there are not enough guys out there leading harder stuff to justify the effort of getting to that level - you can be the best follower in the world but what happens on the dancefloor depends on what the leader can lead (interesting thought - this means that followers experience a lot of different stuff on the dancefloor as they come into contact with different lead repetoires - but for the leaders it's the same set of moves every time because they only experience their own moves - which incentivises the learning process for the guys because they get bored dancing the same repetoire all the time!). This all adds up to the girls advancing faster than the guys - at least early on. So to the girls who are learning with their partner I say stay patient - it's tougher for the guys to get this stuff under their belts! Interestingly, the guys who stay with salsa tend to end up dancing at a higher level than the girls who stick with it - so eventually guys you will overtake most of the girls (although your regular partner will probably keep up with you because you practice together). At this dewveloped stage guys - 4, 5 or 6 years down the line you will become a rare and desirable thing - a guy who can dance well enough to make the girls look and feel good on the dancefloor - and they'll pretty much forgive your everything when you get to that level! Promotion
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5 commentsPosted by Tom on Fri 28 Mar 2008 at 12:35 AM
Ways of learning salsa.
I'm wondering about learning salsa, and the different ways. Your blog post strikes a chord, and I have a few questions - do you think either a description of the routine of a lesson, or a video of the lesson routine (w/ w/out additional info) would be useful for leaders/followers (for example for recall,review, practise)?
Would this alienate or maybe even help the more relaxed learners who aren't wanting to dedicate a large amount of time outside classes to practice and review?
Would this help those who are trying to progress their skills to get to the next rung up and are able to put in more extra time?
My angle is that the faster the lead/follower gets past the learning speedbump of going from knowing the basics, to having the knowledge to be comfortable dancing for a whole song? For some leaders, if it's the same set of moves, it might be both a potential motivator and also a demotivator.
Final question - should leaders actively try being followers, to see what it's like/see what a lead feels like?
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Posted by Ian on Fri 28 Mar 2008 at 2:17 AM
Learning from videos etc
Hi Tom - good question... there's no simple answer but here are a few thoughts for you...
Firstly, we all learn in different ways - so a class may be best for one person, a video for the next. It is generally true that a guy will find his way somewhere using a graphical map, whilst most girls would prefer to have the directions written down - so we're all different and we need to find the way that works for us. There are some free resources on the web to help with this but I recommend you consider forking out a tenner and using one of the Learning Styles Questionaires to be found by Googling 'peter honey publications'
My more opinionated response goes along these lines - I've seen people write down a narrative of a taught move. This can help as a short-term memory jog but most people abandon these notes (or they review them at a later date to discover they no longer make any sense!
Videos are a much more effective reminder of a taught move, especially when you have too little time to practice after a lesson - but the question is - how often do you refer to the video? A big part of the problem is the hassle factor of copying it off your camera so you can watch it on a larger screen - relatively small barriers like this can result in the technology being of little use.
Videos alone are, for most people, not answer. It's hard to learn a move taught via video alone - there's no-one there to correct you when things go wrong - all you can do is keep playing the video over and over - which takes committment. And in a class the teacher may adapt the move to fit the ability of the class - no such luxury with the video! I recently worked for two hours with a very patient follower to learn a video move from the Marchant Birch CD - just about got it but I need to go back again to remind myself how to do the move because after a couple days I'd forgottent the pattern! So not an easy option.
Here's what I think works for most people (though few do this, in my experience)...
1) Attend a class with a good teacher. Choose the correct level of class
2) By the end of the class you will be able to place the taught move on a difficulty scale - if you've only just mastered it in the class don't expect to add it easily to your repetoire - on the dancefloor it'll be a lot harder to leader.
3) Practice the move after class regardless of its difficulty (all practice helps) but make a special effort with moves that are within or only just outside your comfort zone
4) With these move practice over and over - until the move starts to go wrong. Then dance something different, then practice the move again. Keep repeating this cycle for at least 30 minutes
5) Concentrate hard on the way you entered the move - what happened through the first 8 count? DOn't forget this - it's the key to the rest of the move - remember the start and most times your memory will take care of the rest. To be on the safe side write down what you did on those first 8 counts - if you have to write much more then you haven't practiced the move enough
6) If you can practice the move at home then fine but for most people you need to wait for the next dancenight or pre-class practice time. Either way, if you leave it longer than a week you'll lose the move (most times) - try to dance it within 3 days if you can. Important note - don't dance the move at a dance night unless you are sure you can lead it - you'll just mess up and lose confidence. Make sure the move is in your head - and especially, keep holding onto the pattern of the first 8 count
7) Between the lesson and the first time you dance the move - when you are lying in bed at night picture yourself leading through the move. This is almost as useful as dancing it live. Try to imagine it through at least 4 times (though you'll be asleep after 3...)
8) If you video'd the move the film will only be useful if the first 8 count has gone walkabout from your memory. If you need the whole video then you're also going to need to do a lot more practicing before you can take the move to a dancefloor
9) Got it nailed? Now dance it during almost every dance - do this for a few weeks and it'll start to fix
10) The key here is the practice - there's no shortcut to gaining a repetoire of moves - it's about repetition through practice
The time when you need extra support the most is early on. For this reason we at SalsaKernow put our classes onto our website for people to refer to. The sound quality is poor, I look like a dork and there's loads of talking - but as reminder/reference the system works - and the number of viewings of these videos and feedback from people attending our classes confirms their usefulness. The idea may be of use to other teachers. We upload the move for the current week plus a preview of the following weeks' move - if teachers want to use our web service for this - and the videos as well if it helps - then contact us.
In the meantime, if anyone would like to view a couple of examples you can do so by returning to the home page of this website - then click 'online class videos login' in the panel in the top-right corner - then use the password: salsavid
I hope these notes have been of use Tom!
Ian
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Posted by tom on Fri 28 Mar 2008 at 11:28 AM
A relief for a learning salsero
Thanks for the reply Ian - much appreciated :)
I think we do all learn in different ways, and at different speeds for those different ways, and it does seem plausible that different methods. This might be a bit lead-centric a reply, but then we leads don't usually get much of a chance to roleplay hehe
Following is much more than an If-Then table, and leading is much more than a sheet of instructions. But both may gain something from simplifying it to this to an extent.
I think the attitude "we're all different and we need to find the way that works for us" is a good one. Explicitly providing the option of a written summary or youtube level quality video allows recap.
I can understand note taking - having got several old routines from years back when I first started dancing.
As you say - most may become undecipherable quite quickly! They can break down by missing a step omitting a key kingpin part of the move. In terms of a short term jog - if it was as easy to watch a video narrative as it was to go over written notes, i think the notes might be chucked! It isn't a long -term solution though - not until you've got it in long term muscle memory and it's a reminder.
So videos is much more effective reminder of a taught move, especially for those who have too little time to practice after a lesson.
How often do you refer to the video? My answer is that from a technological angle - maybe for some, not enough! I'd say only 2 reasons - Lack of ease of access to the videos, and lack of ease of access to the video player. Hassle basically. Coming from a technological angle, there is a solution - a Salsa application. Something dedicated to being a teaching aid, memory jogger, key point reviewer etc. It might not be able to be as flexible as our flexible friends the teachers at Salsa Kernow, but with additional text meta-data, it could cover say a few basic areas (Key points, common mistakes, timing, verbal description etc.) Video currently has another draw-back, being the ability to get to the pertinent part of the video, and slow mo - easily shift around in time.
Video doesn't provide feedback. And if you don't ask your salsa partner, you may well never know... How many people when learning a move of a routine in a class, ask for feedback mid-session from each new partner as you rotate?
As a quick question, regarding the Marchant Birch routine - what is/was your learning process for it?
I'd agree with the list of things that work for most people, and the fact not all the steps are usually done (the memory equivalent of a non-Smashing Scoped piece of knowledge)
Most people do 1 - get to a class at the right level, with a good teacher.
A percentage practice the move after class but hey - we all get thirsty and need a chat! And if people can't stay till open dancing floor time, they've missed that chance to get that non-taught consolidation dance time (which is a great bridge to social-dancing at a club for example)
You can't bash the same routine out too much, but as a leader, at least you can do this through getting several dances with different partners, as it's good o practise the routine just done, and it's fresh in the memory of both (hopefully).
Specifically point 4 - is an area, if you can, that helps I imagine - "With these move practice over and over - until the move starts to go wrong. Then dance something different, then practice the move again. Keep repeating this cycle for at least 30 minutes"
I'm wholeheartedly agree with 5:
Concentrate hard on the way you entered the move - what happened through the first 8 count? Don't forget this - it's the key to the rest of the move - remember the start and most times your memory will take care of the rest. To be on the safe side write down what you did on those first 8 counts - if you have to write much more then you haven't practiced the move enough
Does anyone else have temporary mind blanks as a lead?
Or go, hmm, how did those moves link? I think this is where a concise description may be helpful - Open hold mambo is analogous to a blank sheet of paper - you "get writing" - you get out of any salsa dancing block through the first 3-8 counts, and the rest is more than likely to flow. Those first 8 beats of the copa - if you then have (inside Ld underarm turn, false CBL, CBL with inside turn, cuddles, female tunnel...) that might help - knowing the smaller chunks and naming the larger move sized parts helps here. Doesn't have to be anything logical - more outlandish the better - The Kernow shuffle, the touch and go Plymouth slide, The Angus styling -whatever hehe.
How many leaders wait till their next lesson till the next lesson before practising? (2-7 days lets say)
Most times - the moves lost - but can be regained through not only watching/chatting with a classmate, but doing it again before the first lesson starts.
If you can't find a partner - visualisation of it (or maybe a "What women think" style solo in the kitchen with proper hand positioning, and a hat stand?) helps.
The point is here - it's more than likely the memory is a bit holey, and a bit weak/fragile/error prone. The video might help here, but then as you say, If you need the whole video then you're also likely going to need to do a lot more practicing before you can take the move to a dancefloor (but at least you'll more likely to have it retained in your memory banks!).
Then you got it, and like a shiny new thing/skill you play with it every time you have the chance, converting the memory to muscle memory, till that holy grail, where in any given position by the 5th-8th count of a bar, you can see a varied set of options as to where to take the dance.
But there's no shortcut to practise. I guess all of the above is just how to practise well/smart/efficiently.
Cheers for the video link :)
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Posted by Ian on Fri 28 Mar 2008 at 11:47 AM
A bit more...
I think at the root of the whole dialogue is a natural frustration with the time it takes to get to a good standard as a leader.
The are some guys who get there pretty quickly but if they do it still tends to show in their dancing. For the majority it's a slog and only the committed will get through, which is why there is such a small number of good male leads with interesting repetoires on the scene. I've been dancing now for about 8 years and I am still frustrated by the often formulaic content of my own dancing - I have a sense of being about to move past that but it takes hours of work over weeks of time.
It really is all about practicing and doing that with a good follower who will allow you to develop - that's a hard thing to get - but each time I have got connected with a girl who wants to learn and wants me to learn the standard of my dancing has moved up a notch.
Teaching and memory aids all help but the core thing is called 'dance time' - the more of it you do the better you get.
With regards my approach to using the Marchant video - nothing too surprising - I hired a hall for two hours, brought in an excellent follower who was also interested in learning the move. Then played it on my laptop - I used it like a real class - playing over the talked through element until we were ready to move onto the next - re-capping to the stage we'd reached by dancing through from the start. Watching the video very closely when things felt wrong. Then, with the move learned we danced it for a good 10 to 20 minutes. Then freestyled bring the move in occasionally so it was a bit more random. After two hours went home. Two days later couldn't remember the move to save my life!
But that's ok - I'm re-visiting the video today so I can grab the person I learned with at the dancenight this Saturday and hopefully it'll come back - once I get it working properly with the follower who knows the move I'll be better placed to lead it with the unsuspecting!!!
I
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Posted by Tom on Tue 28 Oct 2008 at 7:30 AM
dancing and martial arts
hey. just stubled across your article when I was theorizing about my judo & jiu jitsu practice. seems like there are 4 stages to learning a move.
1. learning & refining. 2. Drilling it without resistance. 3. Practicing it with resistance. 4. Integrating it into the game.
As Salsa doesn't involve a resisting partner, seems like the learning stages are exactly the same as martial arts, or grappling at least.
Food for thought: maybe martial artists could expand their brainspace & reflex neurons by learning to dance ! What a wonderful thing the internet is. I think I'll give my ex-girlfriend who's now a Salsa teacher a call...
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